Curse

Siren · Mar 22, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

Sure, there may be casual PvP players and dedicated PvE players... But when PvE becomes PvP because it's competitive, you have to be a dedicated player in order to be able to play the game, and that's just not right, or what the game set out to do.

Do you believe you have to be dedicated to PvE to play the game? Have you never timed yourself to see how fast you could complete the Ascension trials in Crystal Desert? Have you never tried speed runs? Have you never compared completion rates with your friends or guildies? Have you never had the urge to see which of your friends could do something in PvE the most efficiently?

Dedication is dedication. It doesn't change between PvP and PvE, and it sure as hell doesn't change in PvPvE. You have to be dedicated to winning in PvE, correct? Why can't you be dedicated to winning in PvPvE? Especially when you're obliterating computer players still?

I find it hard to believe anyone has never had any kind of competitive streak or dedication to anything in an online game.

dreamhunk · Mar 22, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Do you believe you have to be dedicated to PvE to play the game? Have you never timed yourself to see how fast you could complete the Ascension trials in Crystal Desert? Have you never tried speed runs? Have you never compared completion rates with your friends or guildies? Have you never had the urge to see which of your friends could do something in PvE the most efficiently?

Dedication is dedication. It doesn't change between PvP and PvE, and it sure as hell doesn't change in PvPvE. You have to be dedicated to winning in PvE, correct? Why can't you be dedicated to winning in PvPvE? Especially when you're obliterating computer players still?

I find it hard to believe anyone has never had any kind of competitive streak or dedication to anything in an online game.

rpg players are not out to compete. When you are talking about competitive your talking a sport. Your talking about braging rights and EGOs. There is alot of people who are not into that. Look at emotes has done to HA. it is because of EGOs HA is dead. There is people who will have nothing to do with competeing. You have a mind set of pvp player not an rpg player.

PVP is Pvp, Rpg is not about pvp it is about life.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 22, 2006, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Also, the trick to improving PvE is not to introduce dynamic environments in the sense that you're suggesting. The trick to improving PvE is to make it challenging, or give players options for mission difficulties. Like level 24 Charr in the Fort Ranik mission. Stuff like that. Basically an arcade mode, rather than "new plotline!!" mode.

Well yeah, that could be an option. The tough thing here is to use GW as an example of what I am talking about. Certainly the system would not work for the game as it is now, but had the system been developed as the main mechanic from the very beginning, I think it could be a workable one.

I mean really, wouldn't it be interesting to play FG, then replay it with a totally different goal in mind, such as revenge killing the dwarf that axed Rurik? Limits to how many different instances of the areas would naturally have to be imposed to indeed avoid that trainwreck you mentioned. But let's say three instances of FG would be reasonable - the current one, then the revenge one I just mentioned. The third one could potentially be one in which players can choose a PvP arena instance that takes place in that area of the map or choose a PvE instance used strictly for fighting monsters and farming (and with a potentially better AI, make for repeating this third and final instance a lot less tedious than farming tends to be now).

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

Andy_M · Mar 22, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Do you believe you have to be dedicated to PvE to play the game? Have you never timed yourself to see how fast you could complete the Ascension trials in Crystal Desert? Have you never tried speed runs? Have you never compared completion rates with your friends or guildies? Have you never had the urge to see which of your friends could do something in PvE the most efficiently?

No to all of that for me, doing things like that is too much like number-crunching for my taste. If I wanted to number-crunch then I'd play WoW or a game of that ilk.

If I want to spend hours just wandering about then I will, I find it fun. It's not as if I'm going to get a burning urge to do pvp (although this was Anet's intention - hey look, more number-crunching - yay!) as soon as I finish the story is it ?

The trick of improving PvE is to make it more interesting and fun. For me that does not include competitive missions - end of story. I'd rather do THK 5 times in a row than have to do Aurora Glade ONCE - why do you think they made the entire Magumaa section (bar Sanctum) missable anyway ?

mqstout · Mar 23, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Do you believe you have to be dedicated to PvE to play the game? Have you never timed yourself to see how fast you could complete the Ascension trials in Crystal Desert? Have you never tried speed runs? Have you never compared completion rates with your friends or guildies? Have you never had the urge to see which of your friends could do something in PvE the most efficiently.

I've never done any of the above. They all sound quite silly to me.

WasAGuest · Mar 23, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Have you never timed yourself to see how fast you could complete the Ascension trials in Crystal Desert? Have you never tried speed runs? Have you never compared completion rates with your friends or guildies? Have you never had the urge to see which of your friends could do something in PvE the most efficiently?

Nope, none of those ever crossed my mind. My friends and I usually build our characters to compliment each other. We find it more fun that way. Then we play in a relaxed semi-silly entertaining style. Going into an arena type game enviroment wouldn't fit our "relaxed" play style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I find it hard to believe anyone has never had any kind of competitive streak or dedication to anything in an online game.

That's just the Cooperative players (pure PvE) mind set. Competition vs others is flat out not on our minds. Now years ago, before my major burn out on competitive games Quake II and then Quake III. But since then, I've pretty much grown out of that style of play. Meaning I've grown away from it, not meaning an age thing there.

Here's a thought; you get ready to go see a movie. You and your friends/family plan on Thursday to go see the show on Saturday. When you all get there, the show is not playing for whatever reason. Are you then irritated, frustrated, disappointed or happy about it?
This is the question I saw in general chat the other day in reference to the Favor and future Factions system. The players' answers were interesting. A couple didn't catch the obvious link behind the question and answered that they would be really p'd off. Another person said he saw the point and agreed, where as before he didn't. The last couple said they wouldn't really care, since they were now with friends, they were going to go get drunk. (That one was the funniest).
Anyway, since that question was on topic for here, I was curious what others here would say: Myself, I would leave frustrated - as you could probably already have guessed.

Siren · Mar 23, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Okay, well what about just going a bit bloodthirsty during a mission?

None of you ever get any type of adrenaline rush when you're say...holding off the East entrance in THK by yourself for a solid 10 or 15 minutes during the assault waves?

Or what about Thirsty River? Do you guys ever feel that crunch time? Any tickle of any feeling other than "yup, going to explore this zone"? Do you ever get that "kill kill kill" feeling when that timer hits 1:00 and you head in to gank the priest?

Incidentally, the Ascension trial missions are the exact same format as HoH matches. Elona is the relic run. Thirsty is Burial Mounds and later variations. Dunes of Despair is the altar cap. You play the Ascension missions, you're playing a PvP game. The format is no different at all.

Do you guys feel any excitement during combat? It's the thrill of battle. And the thrill of battle doesn't care what mode you play.

To answer your question, WasAGuest, I'd be annoyed. Then I'd figure out a solution, whether that be finding another movie I'd be interested in seeing, or doing a "diner run," given that South Jersey has the most diners per square mile than any state or country around.

WasAGuest · Mar 23, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Okay, well what about just going a bit bloodthirsty during a mission?

None of you ever get any type of adrenaline rush when you're say...holding off the East entrance in THK by yourself for a solid 10 or 15 minutes during the assault waves?

Or what about Thirsty River? Do you guys ever feel that crunch time? Any tickle of any feeling other than "yup, going to explore this zone"? Do you ever get that "kill kill kill" feeling when that timer hits 1:00 and you head in to gank the priest?

Incidentally, the Ascension trial missions are the exact same format as HoH matches. Elona is the relic run. Thirsty is Burial Mounds and later variations. Dunes of Despair is the altar cap. You play the Ascension missions, you're playing a PvP game. The format is no different at all.

Do you guys feel any excitement during combat? It's the thrill of battle. And the thrill of battle doesn't care what mode you play.

To answer your question, WasAGuest, I'd be annoyed. Then I'd figure out a solution, whether that be finding another movie I'd be interested in seeing, or doing a "diner run," given that South Jersey has the most diners per square mile than any state or country around.

Thanks for answering. If a few more people answer, I'll end it with what the "original" askers ended with.
Those missions you mentioned are actually amoung the least favorite for me. THK is too long and holding the "fort" against wave after wave, well, I find dull. The desert missions as a whole leave something to be desired for me. Elona is horrible and reminded me of a poorly made CTF map or those UT maps where you ran off to grab the randomly spawning orb and returned it to your "base" for points. Thisty River is one of the most hated or loved missions in the game. You'll be hard pressed to find someone on the fence about this mission. They either hate it or love it, and it shows the polarity or the gamers in GW. And Dunes is flat boring to me.

What missions I do find fun, are ones that my group and I are pitted up against a single larger foe where the battle or foe doesn't drop in seconds flat. Glint is the single best mob boss in the game for me right now and I feel we could do with many more such encounters as her. Fighting our way to her then the final confrontation. There are other such "hot spots" in the game, but not many. Running to and from one fast dropping foe to another is not what I am looking for; see "Rushed" type game.
In Iron Mines, I woud love for the "Infusion bubble head" to not drop like a rock. It's a large step in the game and the boss should put up something of a fight. In S Cay, rather then defending the Vizier from waves of foes, I think it would be cooler to battle some sort of "sea monster" that is holding the ship down or something. We just need bigger longer lasting battles vs bigger more difficult creatures. Not waves and waves of foes. Just examples on how things could change for the better. This could be coming from the years of EQ where group tactics was required to take down even a single mob, but bosses need some work, and I'm not refering to adding more fodder around them.

As for the rush thing. I know exactly what you are talking about. Last time I felt that was years ago, before I burned out on PvP games. They just eventually did nothing for me and got boring. Hence, I grew away from them. Since that point, just can't get that feeling in any game, though on occasion I do get the "Cool!" or "HA!" when I live through something I shouldn't have.

Good questions though and I can see what you find fun in the game. I used to be the same way, sounds like, exactly what I used to look for in the games I played.

mqstout · Mar 23, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

My experiences mostly reflect as Guest's do, except I do like the Elona Reach mission -- because it is difficult and great to practice team work. The time limit? We've never been close. I assure you I'd hate it if it were actual players we were against...

And then there's that worst-mission-in-the-game Aurora Glade...

(FYI, my favorite mission: Riverside.)

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 26, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Well, as this weekend winds down, I find that my original fear about not accessing areas seems to be unfounded (at least as far as the allowed explorable areas have been). However, I still don't like this "your either with us or against us" mechanic. I think it would be a lot better if it was more like "as long as you are not an enemy, we will show you some hospitality." After all, if someone wants me to support their cause, they can at least prove to me that they are worth it.

I have also found some other problems, especially the monster imbalance on the Kurzick side. Siren hit the nail right on the head when he talked about the war of attrition when it comes to fighting groups in PvE - only its much worse thus far in Factions. It is neither fun nor challenging to attempt to sneak around a group of baddies or to outfight them when all of a sudden you are outnumbered 3 to 1. That's just rediculous.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

WasAGuest · Mar 27, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Yea, access to areas seemed less an issue, but why go to an area you can't do anything in? With faction points being king here, access to missions and merchants was really locked out. As it were, before all my guildies gave up on it

, we would go exploring, fill up on stuff to sell, head to a town, map out, sell, map back; add another step of re-grabbing henchies if we used em and rinse repeat.
The PvP games were terrible, at least for me. Time to enter them was horrid, and wanting to give it the benefit of the doubt, I kept trying. Once in, I found myself in the company of complete jerks and bafoons whom screamed and yelled at the group... it was no wonder so many people were dropping out of these missions. I dropped twice in a row because of this.
I finally got into a good group on the third try and while we were on our way we got slammed by the opposing team.
Two attempts I was really frustrated and irritated. Third attempt gave me cause for a "nevermind" attitude. Sorry, but "attempting" to do missions and quests over and over and not being able to finish it is like banging my head on a brick wall and calling it a good time. Hours lost and not a thing to show for it other than frustration. Not my idea of a good time or relaxing time.
For the FPE and the PvE content, I expected fewer quests than I got. So, no real complaints there on the quest side. What I didn't get to see, since I'm now out of time to play, is more missions that are focused on PvE rather than PvP. Earning 10k faction with one then the other became an effort of utter boredom. Create character, do all the quests I could find, play PvP for more or start yet another character (thank goodness I could send myself an invite) and repeat. Having those missions open at the start would have been better (it is a FPE after all).
The example above will probably not be possible in the full release. After hearing Jeff S in the interview, he says that after we "ascend" in Faction, we then pick a side. And while that is drastically shorter (per Jeff S), it is still 10 to 20 hours. So gaining faction points will eventually come down to faction point farming via PvP mini games after all the quests have been done. Unless I missed something... which is very possible.
Overall, my favorite part of the FPE was hearing the PvPers complain about the PvEers not knowing how to play in a PvP game. Hearing PvEers called "carebears", "noobs", "a-holes", "idiots" and many many more. Yea, good move putting PvE and PvP closer, made my gaming experience fun.

Siren · Mar 27, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

I have also found some other problems, especially the monster imbalance on the Kurzick side. Siren hit the nail right on the head when he talked about the war of attrition when it comes to fighting groups in PvE - only its much worse thus far in Factions. It is neither fun nor challenging to attempt to sneak around a group of baddies or to outfight them when all of a sudden you are outnumbered 3 to 1. That's just rediculous.

I suppose this would go in a different thread, but I just wanted to comment on it, heh.

In previous Betas, I've gotten my ass kicked before in the new areas. Even in the Gates of Kryta-esque BWE back in July 04, I got wrecked a few times. In the Beta introducing us to Post-Sear Ascalon, same thing. When I first hit The Wilds, same thing.

But this one was absurd. lol. Almost immediately it seemed like I had 30-50% DP, and it was only Arborstone. Eventually I got the hang of things, and now I can go with a Healer hench, maybe a Fighter, and clear zones pretty well, but still...the aggro and patrol circles were unfair. I usually don't say that about most things in any game, but the Dark Moa quest was downright wrong. 4-5 groups of some 3-4 enemies each, each with their own healer, all aggro when only one Gutter of one group strolls into my aggro bubble.

*shudders*

EDIT: Regarding the PvP stuff...usually during BWEs you have complete morons. Partly it's due to everyone has no idea what they're doing, and so they get frustrated. And partly it's due to some people are just complete douchebags. I wouldn't let that affect how you view PvP, though, because I played one of the Alliance missions last night and my experience was extraordinarily positive. Everyone (all 24 players) was very good-natured. Local chat was either silent or positive. We ultimately lost, but the other team complimented us on our "nice comeback!" after we had pushed back up to a 400/400 ratio at the 3/5 mark of the match.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 27, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Overall, the players I were teamed with in the PvP missions were fairly decent (personality-wise), but I really didn't have much fun in them at all. I don't know if it's because of the FPE, but if Anet wanted to introduce the new PvP system, they should have come up with a better way. I posted in another thread that I spend about 5 minutes running around or hiding in my team's base because the other team had control of all the access points, and we had no other alternatives but to chat and wait until they reached the 500 points.

If I was basing my decision to buy Factions primarily on the new PvP options, I certainly wouldn't be buying it at this point.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace